For me, it’s the over-the-top sweetness mostly. It’s Paul and Stevie so of course the melody is nice. Of course it’s a nice lyrical sentiment but I think the metaphor is kinda trite. But on top of all of this I think it’s just the expectation of Paul and Stevie working together. I’d expect a masterpiece. Power to you if you enjoy it though. I don’t hate it so much to not understand why someone might like it
Thanks, Chris, for the respectful response. I meant the question sincerely. I di get the seeming triteness of it, especially melodically.
But as a budding songwriter, I think I immediately felt that what seemed so obvious in the wordsmithing was the result of some serious craft mastery.
(Begging the reader's indulgence):
"Ebony and ivory
Live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on my piano
Keyboard
Oh Lord
Why don't we?"
Now, for however many centuries black and white keys have been arranged such as they are, I was struck with why no one had, until then, thought to draw the obvious parallel with black/white societal relations.
Maybe it'd been done in some obscure poem somewhere, sure. But this was on the radio in everybody's car--and we nodded our heads and tapped our feet to some, dare I say, thought-provoking social commentary. That's not nuthin'.
But more to the point, I remember hearing Paul say in an interview--and I was a kid writing lyrics, so it stuck with me--that (paraphrasing) sometimes a songwriter gets it just right when some Joe Blow of a listener thinks to himself "of course ... I could've done that."
Come to think of it, I wonder if that interview was when "Silly Love Songs" came out--another song for which Paul suffered slings and arrows! Maybe I'm misremembering that ... But I do love me some happy pop lyrics -- so "here I go again"...
What’s interesting is that I love silly love songs. I feel like that is up against the line of cheesiness and ebony and ivory crosses it. Also silly love songs has a sneaky unreal bass line
I agree that it was well received when first released, after all it was Stevie Wonder & Paul McCartney!
But it began to get a bad rap for being trite as time progressed. Maybe because sweetness & light themselves began to wane on pop radio. Wonder if that coincides with the rise of hiphop or other genres trafficking in crudeness and vulgarity ... Just guessing.
You might appreciate this as well . . . The only reason I know the song is that I was following the NBA fairly closely when it came out and someone did a version of the video that spliced in footage of Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant. So the chorus, "four, five seconds to wilding" always makes me think of Westbrook gathering himself to attack the rim.
The other NBA video that I wish I could find was a version of Swifts "Style" re-written as a tribute to Dirk and Duncan.
Good collaboration/duet album, though not in the traditional sense, is Kanye West and Jay-Z’s Watch The Throne - got some really iconic tracks on there. Also going further back, Black Star, the collab album between Mos Def and Talib Kweli, is amazing. Of course, you have to throw in Madvillainy as well.
Do you go back far enough to know some of the great duet albums from the past? Several that come to mind are Bing Crosby and Rosemary Clooney (they did two), Bing and Satchmo (Louis Armstrong), Louis and Ella (Fitzgerald), Bobby Darin and Johnny Mercer, Louis Prima and Keely Smith, Ann-Marget and Al Hirt.
A second duet with Paul seemed like a sure thing after MJ hadn’t had a record out in a couple of years, an eternity in the music business back then. A hedge against the album somehow flopping or the pop audience rejecting his new material. A quaint notion in the wake of Thriller’s subsequent worldwide domination, I know.
Great post, Chris. Very inspirational, made me think about duets I have loved over the years. Speaking of the McCartney/Jackson duet, I was in the grocery store today and they played 'The Girl Is Mine.' Possibly more cringe-inducing than 'Ebony & Ivory'!!
I do think that your observations are spot on regarding the tendency for duets to get sloppy and for streaming to make them more so.
Interesting piece Chris. And talking about Springsteen. Tomorrow’s “The Twelve Inch” is all about the bestselling Twelve Inch of 84. As a true fan you`ll know which song I’m talking about 😀
Completely agree with this post. Supergroups are often excellent, but the modern fad for shallow duets is distinctly cynical and underwhelming. There is simply no compelling reason for many artists to work together, and the results are the proof.
Have never understood why people despise "Ebony & Ivory," which here is described as "abysmal."
Is it just the overall sweetness that to many is mere kitsch and saccharine?
Is it like getting (what do the kids call it) "rickrolled" or something?—once everybody decided to hate it, the ridicule took on a life of it's own?
Would sincerely love to hear what the song's artistic demerits are. Been wondering this for years and years.
For me, it’s the over-the-top sweetness mostly. It’s Paul and Stevie so of course the melody is nice. Of course it’s a nice lyrical sentiment but I think the metaphor is kinda trite. But on top of all of this I think it’s just the expectation of Paul and Stevie working together. I’d expect a masterpiece. Power to you if you enjoy it though. I don’t hate it so much to not understand why someone might like it
Thanks, Chris, for the respectful response. I meant the question sincerely. I di get the seeming triteness of it, especially melodically.
But as a budding songwriter, I think I immediately felt that what seemed so obvious in the wordsmithing was the result of some serious craft mastery.
(Begging the reader's indulgence):
"Ebony and ivory
Live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on my piano
Keyboard
Oh Lord
Why don't we?"
Now, for however many centuries black and white keys have been arranged such as they are, I was struck with why no one had, until then, thought to draw the obvious parallel with black/white societal relations.
Maybe it'd been done in some obscure poem somewhere, sure. But this was on the radio in everybody's car--and we nodded our heads and tapped our feet to some, dare I say, thought-provoking social commentary. That's not nuthin'.
But more to the point, I remember hearing Paul say in an interview--and I was a kid writing lyrics, so it stuck with me--that (paraphrasing) sometimes a songwriter gets it just right when some Joe Blow of a listener thinks to himself "of course ... I could've done that."
Come to think of it, I wonder if that interview was when "Silly Love Songs" came out--another song for which Paul suffered slings and arrows! Maybe I'm misremembering that ... But I do love me some happy pop lyrics -- so "here I go again"...
"You'd think that people would've
Had enough of silly love songs
I look around me and I see it isn't so.
Some people wanna fill the world
With silly love songs.
And what's wrong with that?"
What’s interesting is that I love silly love songs. I feel like that is up against the line of cheesiness and ebony and ivory crosses it. Also silly love songs has a sneaky unreal bass line
Fair enough, Chris.
And I dig that "Silly Love Songs" horn arrangement :0)
Until today, I was not aware the song was hated. The song came out when I was a kid and it seemed like a popular song and a big deal.
I agree that it was well received when first released, after all it was Stevie Wonder & Paul McCartney!
But it began to get a bad rap for being trite as time progressed. Maybe because sweetness & light themselves began to wane on pop radio. Wonder if that coincides with the rise of hiphop or other genres trafficking in crudeness and vulgarity ... Just guessing.
I like the post and it makes me think that it's remarkable that "Four Five Seconds" (Rihanna, Kanye, Paul McCartney) worked as well as it did.
same. sounds like it was a collaboration defined by mad libs
You might appreciate this as well . . . The only reason I know the song is that I was following the NBA fairly closely when it came out and someone did a version of the video that spliced in footage of Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant. So the chorus, "four, five seconds to wilding" always makes me think of Westbrook gathering himself to attack the rim.
The other NBA video that I wish I could find was a version of Swifts "Style" re-written as a tribute to Dirk and Duncan.
There are a bunch of YT comments about how it seems like a random group thrown together for a class project (who then got an A).
I liked the one that joked that it was the smart girl, the jock, and the transfer student :)
Good collaboration/duet album, though not in the traditional sense, is Kanye West and Jay-Z’s Watch The Throne - got some really iconic tracks on there. Also going further back, Black Star, the collab album between Mos Def and Talib Kweli, is amazing. Of course, you have to throw in Madvillainy as well.
Love your rants, Chris!
Do you go back far enough to know some of the great duet albums from the past? Several that come to mind are Bing Crosby and Rosemary Clooney (they did two), Bing and Satchmo (Louis Armstrong), Louis and Ella (Fitzgerald), Bobby Darin and Johnny Mercer, Louis Prima and Keely Smith, Ann-Marget and Al Hirt.
I'm very familiar with the Louis and Ella duets.
I should add Ray Charles and just about anybody, Steve and Eydie, all the great Motown duets, and a few by Frank, Dino, Bing, and Sammy.
A second duet with Paul seemed like a sure thing after MJ hadn’t had a record out in a couple of years, an eternity in the music business back then. A hedge against the album somehow flopping or the pop audience rejecting his new material. A quaint notion in the wake of Thriller’s subsequent worldwide domination, I know.
Great post, Chris. Very inspirational, made me think about duets I have loved over the years. Speaking of the McCartney/Jackson duet, I was in the grocery store today and they played 'The Girl Is Mine.' Possibly more cringe-inducing than 'Ebony & Ivory'!!
I do think that your observations are spot on regarding the tendency for duets to get sloppy and for streaming to make them more so.
The fact that "The Girl is Mine" was the lead single from Thriller is insane
Fav duet (although a cover version) is Joan Jett and John Doe covering The Replacements Androgynous.
Thanks for your always amazing insight.
Thanks for having us!
Interesting piece Chris. And talking about Springsteen. Tomorrow’s “The Twelve Inch” is all about the bestselling Twelve Inch of 84. As a true fan you`ll know which song I’m talking about 😀
Dancing in the Dark?
👍
So what are the best duets in history? Ella and Louis? Ray Charles and Barbra Streisand? Reba and Dolly?
Completely agree with this post. Supergroups are often excellent, but the modern fad for shallow duets is distinctly cynical and underwhelming. There is simply no compelling reason for many artists to work together, and the results are the proof.